The Snetterton 9th May 2016 Trackday Thread
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Hi, agree with all that, grouping riders is a nightmare, we also had a couple of classic bikes, experienced riders but 120 max down the straight, it's what it says on the can, a 'ride friendly' day, not the day to set your best times! Pete, thanks for saying it's really meant to be a day to get newcomers on track for the first time, bonus for the experienced riders is, I had a bad day, 1 red flag!!!
I've had an idea, we all line up on the starting grid, they drop the flag and we set off at out own pace, the fast guys will start fast and the slower ones will be last away, it settles down after half a lap and no need for any overtaking, most will get a clear track in front and it'll be nearly the end of the session before anyone gets passed.
Thinking again, that would be more like a race, no one would want that would they?
I've had an idea, we all line up on the starting grid, they drop the flag and we set off at out own pace, the fast guys will start fast and the slower ones will be last away, it settles down after half a lap and no need for any overtaking, most will get a clear track in front and it'll be nearly the end of the session before anyone gets passed.
Thinking again, that would be more like a race, no one would want that would they?
I would love to try a grid start but in small groups!
I could handle that, its them others 
Presumably the transponder system would use lap times as the metric. If everyone was on comparable bikes, that would be a useful comparison, but it does not address the issue that bins raised in the briefing about slow riders on fast bikes - a rider that holds up faster riders on the corners and then out-drags them on the straights will appear as fast or faster than the faster riders he's holding up.
Glad someone listened to my ramblings!!! one guy nearly missed his second session at 9.40, how many times did I say "listen, we do things different ly,second session at 9.40" maybe it's my Norfolk accent (however, I think I sound like the Queen) no one takes me seriously!
Still think we ought to go for starting grid start, second session on at 9.40, (pay attention at the back) use the sighting laps for qualifying.
Still think we ought to go for starting grid start, second session on at 9.40, (pay attention at the back) use the sighting laps for qualifying.
Like Darryl I put myself in inters on normal days. But these road bike days see generally much lower lap times on average, so fast is fine. I'll be back to Inters at Donington. If I think I'm holding up someone fast in the corners I tend to roll off the throttle on the straights early to release them and avoid being surprised on corner entry!
I have no problem with slow bikes piloted by fast riders. At least they are consistent. Going by on straights is easy. As bins says we're not there to set lap records.
I have no problem with slow bikes piloted by fast riders. At least they are consistent. Going by on straights is easy. As bins says we're not there to set lap records.
I'm up for that Bins!
Many of the comments and suggestions remind me of a story my instructor told me while we we waiting to go to the pit lane for the second session (paraphrased to provide the same gist from the bits that I can remember). Everybody thinks that they're going to turn up to the track and discover that they're the new Valentino Rossi. With minimal training and experience they are somehow going to be a natural riding god (despite all the evidence to the contrary). He then then asks the aspiring star if they follow MotoGP. "Of course.". Did they watch the last race? "Oh yes - Rossi taking Marques on the second to last bend was sheer poetry in motion." Do they remember the person who finished last? "Nah mate, 2nd place is the first of the losers - last place is the last of the losers." He then explains that the last to finish was so proud of completing the race at the highest level of motorsport that he crossed the line on the back wheel, bike almost upright and waving to the crowds - after putting his all into the race. This is what the slowest and least capable rider did, could our aspiring star do this? Aspiring star proceeds to examine his expensive Alpinestar boots.
Racing can be fun. The idea of racing is always fun. A race between people who all properly belong in the fast group would be exciting and relatively speaking only slightly dangerous. Anything that encourages those with more limited ability, and more limited understanding of their own ability, to race is going to be potentially far more dangerous.
As a rider with limited track experience, I would be comfortable with a grid start if either I was at the front on the fastest bike, with a long straight before the first corner, or at the very back, so I can let the carnage subside before navigating through the wreckage. When being realised from the pit lane, we were released in pairs or small instructor led groups. This avoids immediate bunching. 3 years ago I went with some friends to Mugello to not see Valentino Rossi race because Bautista took him out on the first corner. I know that I'm not as capable as Bautista, and everyone knows that everyone else on the track with them isn't.
Arguably the best idea would be for the faster riders in a group to line up at the front of the pit lane and the slower riders at the back. Some might even remember some bloke with a Norfolk accent saying something like that in the briefing.
Speaking as someone who opted for the cautious group and stayed there, the main reason I chose one of bins' "Ride Friendly" track days as my first proper track day is because the whole ethos was more novice friendly - which is presumably why there were more in the cautious group than the other groups. Whilst I wouldn't opt for the cautious group in subsequent track days, having achieved much of what I hoped to achieve at this one, I feel it would be a shame if the focus moved away from the gentle introduction for novices.
Broadly speaking, I think that (in the cautious group at least) the system worked fine. Allowing overtaking on the right (when it is properly safe to do so) was an improvement that allowed us to overtake the really cautious riders without getting stuck behind them until the main straights - but was less relevant to passing the more mainstream cautious riders - they were less of a hindrance and needed a longer straight to pass appropriately. If you are looking to do more work and change things, then perhaps more could be done with the idea of faster riders lining up at the front of the pit lane - although quite what or how is not immediately apparent to me.
Racing can be fun. The idea of racing is always fun. A race between people who all properly belong in the fast group would be exciting and relatively speaking only slightly dangerous. Anything that encourages those with more limited ability, and more limited understanding of their own ability, to race is going to be potentially far more dangerous.
As a rider with limited track experience, I would be comfortable with a grid start if either I was at the front on the fastest bike, with a long straight before the first corner, or at the very back, so I can let the carnage subside before navigating through the wreckage. When being realised from the pit lane, we were released in pairs or small instructor led groups. This avoids immediate bunching. 3 years ago I went with some friends to Mugello to not see Valentino Rossi race because Bautista took him out on the first corner. I know that I'm not as capable as Bautista, and everyone knows that everyone else on the track with them isn't.
Arguably the best idea would be for the faster riders in a group to line up at the front of the pit lane and the slower riders at the back. Some might even remember some bloke with a Norfolk accent saying something like that in the briefing.
Speaking as someone who opted for the cautious group and stayed there, the main reason I chose one of bins' "Ride Friendly" track days as my first proper track day is because the whole ethos was more novice friendly - which is presumably why there were more in the cautious group than the other groups. Whilst I wouldn't opt for the cautious group in subsequent track days, having achieved much of what I hoped to achieve at this one, I feel it would be a shame if the focus moved away from the gentle introduction for novices.
Broadly speaking, I think that (in the cautious group at least) the system worked fine. Allowing overtaking on the right (when it is properly safe to do so) was an improvement that allowed us to overtake the really cautious riders without getting stuck behind them until the main straights - but was less relevant to passing the more mainstream cautious riders - they were less of a hindrance and needed a longer straight to pass appropriately. If you are looking to do more work and change things, then perhaps more could be done with the idea of faster riders lining up at the front of the pit lane - although quite what or how is not immediately apparent to me.
It is usually the case that faster riders try and get out before the slower ones, and that applies to all track days I have been on. That's not anything new. Within a session or two you can tell roughly where your pace is in the group so you put yourself somewhere thereabouts when lining up to go out. The problem arises when slower riders (in fast group) are already out in the pit lane several minutes before the session starts. If they listened and heeded the advice given it wouldn't be an issue, but no, plenty of the slower riders were consistently lined up at the front well before the next session.
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Stephen
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This thread is turning into quite a good read, nice to hear everyone's opinions.
The only issues I had in the inters group (bearing in mind I'm not fast or experienced but I am completely comfortable which is why I went for inters as I didn't want to take a space from someone less comfortable) were that by the end of a couple of the sessions the riders had ended up in a large pack of about 10 bikes. Which slowed it down to a parade rather than a track day. I am not a good enough rider to pass 10 bikes on the track so I dropped back, only doing 60 on the straight, but I still caught up with them 2 corners later...
I'm not sure if this was because of the amount of riders on the track? I was probably spoiled on the Whitham day as there was less than 20 riders on the track.
The only issues I had in the inters group (bearing in mind I'm not fast or experienced but I am completely comfortable which is why I went for inters as I didn't want to take a space from someone less comfortable) were that by the end of a couple of the sessions the riders had ended up in a large pack of about 10 bikes. Which slowed it down to a parade rather than a track day. I am not a good enough rider to pass 10 bikes on the track so I dropped back, only doing 60 on the straight, but I still caught up with them 2 corners later...
I'm not sure if this was because of the amount of riders on the track? I was probably spoiled on the Whitham day as there was less than 20 riders on the track.
You were definitely spoiled on the JW day. TDs are always busier than that, unless the weather plays its part. The one on this thread was actually less in each group than a standard commercial TD. The bunching up is probably caused by a couple of bikes at the front 'doing their own thing' ignoring the queue behind coupled with inexperienced riders unable to progress past them safely. In those situations backing off is sensible but you tend to find you catch up too quickly, riding up the pit lane and stopping before being released back on track is a safe way of giving yourself some space, rolling along a straight at 60 isn't particularly safe on a fast circuit. Personally I would look to work my way through the group in front to get to clear track. It's often the case that the bikes at the front are holding everyone else up so once you are past the back markers the front bikes are simple to pass.
It is very difficult to organise a grid, even when you qualify at racing. We have 15 mins to put in a best lap which gives you yr grid spot. Forget about GP, WSB, BSB and any other 'professional' racing, those of us at club level who are used to race starts still mess up on the lights and can gain or lose 10 places! What I am saying is it's a free for all at the start and on track days there IS,IS, a VR46 wannabe out there, I've seen it too many times. Believe it or not, I've seen less accidents racing than on trackdays and feel less vunerable racing as well.
Pete
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Some good sense comments here, and thanks to bins for getting the show together. Don't get me wrong, I'm only saying as I see it so this is not a criticism, just my consumer opinion of the day. I thought the day was geared towards the first timer or novice, and I only really booked it as a spur of the moment, 1st trackday of the year sort of thing. Everyone was lovely and very friendly. It's true there are some knobs....many more knobs..on say a no limits or focussed events day, on their stolen zx10rs with race body work, but I can safely say no one in the fast group has ever had such a lack of spatial awareness that they wander from the right to the left halfway up the start finish straight and nearly put a passing rider...me..on the grass at 140. That wasn't an isolated incident. I did enjoy the smaller groups and got some good clear track time though, but if you are confident riding on track, maybe go with the idea that the experienced group is more like novice / inters and be careful of your fellow group riders unpredictability, that way everyone gets home in one piece, and yes, the lack of reds was good.
Will admit to signing up in borderline the "wrong" group. Have done several trackdays, in fact a group of us used to organise them, but none for about 8 years, so wasn't sure how I'd be. In the event I wish I'd gone for Experienced, not because I'm quick but just because there would have been more opportunity to learn- my favourite laps all day were either a clear track (last session was ace) or hanging on the coattails of an instructor working out where I was slow, and where I was a real slug. But it wasn't hard to find space, and everyone in the Inters was plenty safe and aware. It's one of those situations where I didn't want to come across as arrogant by asking to move up.
Overall though, I enjoyed the day way more than most of the "hardcore" trackdays I've done in the past. Well organised, well explained and plenty of expertise available.
Oh and Stephen, love your vid, great smooth riding style too.
Alex, which was the Drift steering stem mount you recommended?
Overall though, I enjoyed the day way more than most of the "hardcore" trackdays I've done in the past. Well organised, well explained and plenty of expertise available.
Oh and Stephen, love your vid, great smooth riding style too.
Alex, which was the Drift steering stem mount you recommended?
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Hi chap, I'm using Ram Mounts to mount the camera on the stem. All the other mounts were standard drift.
You need a stem ball. 3" arm and tripod ball which fits the camera.
You need a stem ball. 3" arm and tripod ball which fits the camera.
Ah, unfortunately I've got a business visit to Romania on the Cadwell date
I'm in Romania from the 26th (June)!
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