I am struggling for the point of this discussion.
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Suspension and brake lever feel questions for HP4
- Thread starter draz
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towers040
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Enjoy the new springy bits. Your bike certainly gets well pampered.
SSR Suspension
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I Have no idea why you can not see the picture sorry. I assume that you are an engineer or you work professionaly in the industry based upon your welcome post on this forum?
With the deepest respect I am not quite sure where you are trying to go with your post on this page, if you are not happy to have this done then do not do it, yes as you found out if that loctite is not heated up enough then it can obliterate the thread on the alloy feet as you try to remove the tube.
All I can say is that many thousands of people have their tubes removed 'the world over' by countless professional suspension companies (both independent and manufacturer) as countless brands can only have their fork kits fitted by doing this. As an engineer I question everything, I have been a professionally qualified engineer since 2007.
As of yet I have never seen or heard of a failure except for people outside of the industry who have tried to do their own tubes and got it wrong. I know KYB have supplied a local Harley Davidson dealer with new tubes to replace in the OEM feet recenty after the guy rear ended a car. If KYB) or Kayaba as they are otherwise known) who design and produce the forks have supplied loosed tubes directly to Harley Davidson surely that speaks volumes.
Good luck trying to contact somebody from KYB or Showa in Japan, KYB do not deal direct with the public and have a sister company.
With the deepest respect I am not quite sure where you are trying to go with your post on this page, if you are not happy to have this done then do not do it, yes as you found out if that loctite is not heated up enough then it can obliterate the thread on the alloy feet as you try to remove the tube.
All I can say is that many thousands of people have their tubes removed 'the world over' by countless professional suspension companies (both independent and manufacturer) as countless brands can only have their fork kits fitted by doing this. As an engineer I question everything, I have been a professionally qualified engineer since 2007.
As of yet I have never seen or heard of a failure except for people outside of the industry who have tried to do their own tubes and got it wrong. I know KYB have supplied a local Harley Davidson dealer with new tubes to replace in the OEM feet recenty after the guy rear ended a car. If KYB) or Kayaba as they are otherwise known) who design and produce the forks have supplied loosed tubes directly to Harley Davidson surely that speaks volumes.
Good luck trying to contact somebody from KYB or Showa in Japan, KYB do not deal direct with the public and have a sister company.
I was a trained technician, suspension/handling on sports motorcycles and mountain bike trails are just a hobby to me.
Sorry, I didn't realize I was stepping on your toes. I assumed this was a forum where I could voice my opinion.
I?m starting to realize that with the exception of Race Tech, this industry is based on customer feedback only and not shared knowledge.
Sorry, I didn't realize I was stepping on your toes. I assumed this was a forum where I could voice my opinion.
I?m starting to realize that with the exception of Race Tech, this industry is based on customer feedback only and not shared knowledge.
We think opinions are fine on here, but they need a point. I'm not seeing yours.
I think your concerns have been addressed.
You can never be sure what happened to the forks before you got them. Someone could have used the wrong tools, wrong torque, wrong bonding materials etc etc. But by and large it reads like the accepted practices are what Mark/SSR uses and he has measured success with them. As a punter, if I sent him forks and in splitting them he found the stanchion was knackered I'd expect in the name of safety he'd call me and tell me we have to replace. But does that mean stanchions are single use, no.
SSR Suspension
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I will end with this and then ill not draw anymore into the subject, i am not arguing just stating facts...
Of course you voiced the right of your opinion but to your own self admittance you are not a professional in the industry and you tried to do your own work and It sounds like it did not go quite according to plan (alex is right, you can never fully be sure what has happened before) I am sorry to hear. I have given you my professional advice and even stated how I approach removing tubes.
Now based upon what you have said you have sought assistance and that assistance for the most part has not been forthcoming in perhaps the way that you would have liked. It does not matter what suspension companies you go off emailing because removing tubes is a very common practice, and the likes of Ohlins, K-Tech etc really probably are not at all interested in helping you with your quiery or have any time to be bothered to reply (the cold harsh reality). Your basically asking them why they are doing something that you think perhaps they should not be and I base that off your comments about the differing thermal effects of materials and substances. As an Engineer I understand these issues surroounding materials from first principles, but again you admit your information has in part been read from the internet.
The Suspension Industry, It is like a club for the boys in a way, as I felt the same way trying to get into Suspension myself even as a race engineer. If you work in the industry you will know the right people and those people will happily discuss the topic with you all day long, there is a hell of a lot of interpersonal relationships between suspension guys within the UK especially when your working at BSB level. It took me a very long time to get in that circle, my work as a Motorcycle Race Engineer (Crew Chief) is outside of SSR Suspension and is also a paid role. I am an Engineer by Degree level vocation as well as trade. Many suspension professionals are also engineers by qualification, some are just technician level, we have all invested in ourselves somewhere along the way.
I have spent thousands of pounds investing in not only myself on courses both at Factory level and at Manufacture/Brand level because believe me they don't come for free! But also the right tooling and equipment to be able to task myself at working with suspension as well as working for free many moons ago as a race mechanic to get experience with bike setup, some of my friends work in Moto GP/WSB and it is good to discuss motorcycle handling, data analysis etc etc as they are on the next level with setup due to the electronic packages they run. Everyday is a school day as a professional and we can all learn from each other and I never know where I may be next season.
I am yet to invest in a dyno, which is vital when analysing damping and diagnosing issues with shocks (any suspension professional worth their salt will agree) but at 10k for even a basic setup it is a lot of outlay. So I use a friends at his workshop, I just pay him in biscuits and coffee. They say you can not learn from a book that is certainly true for some many facets of suspension in practice-but not all. I use a piece of chassis software which costs ?1200 per year to licence, yet it is meaningless on its own, you need at least rider feedback and if possible data if it is a racing environment.
You can't set up a bike by magic numbers or an excel spreadsheet on its own, its not the real world and this is where things have gone too far for average joe. I have also created my own excel spreadsheets etc which are fine in theory, but in real world practice there is alot more going on than what a spreadsheet can tell you. The most important thing above all else, is that the rider is confident and you give him the bike that he wants (or she) and not what the spreadsheet states is correct because sometimes the spreadsheet is wrong and the settings you end up with could not be further than that theoretical spreadsheet.
A road rider or track day guy does not need someone with a chassis software programme or geometry programme to make them faster, they need the basics sorting out before all else (tyres/springs/damping) and to be honest we all could benefit from rider coaching no matter how good we are!
The problem is so many companies are trying to outcompete each other trying to be the next best place to go since sliced bread and the UK is a small place-heck even the racers are starting raceprep shops this year and their branding sells. I also hate when a company starts slagging someone elses work as it is really not very professional at all-why would you be so worried about what someone else has done when What should really matter is what that job is like when it leaves your own door (some people are like lemmings when they see this kind of post!), because even the best people make mistakes we are after all only human.
The reason we suspension people become more sheepish is because some of us have spent thousands of pounds to get to where we are and thats why we get annoyed when we see so much of our trade blagged or missold by people who think they know what they are doing but don't and there is little industry regulation/if any. It is also one of the reasons the majority of us won't touch a web forum or facebook. But I hope to be here to dispell some of the bull**** by being genuine with people on here. But, I am also a highly skilled professional out to make a living and not give out free tips on how to do your own work or set your own bike up to every one under the sun.
As for Racetech, they will help anybody, because that is how they have modelled their business model and systems and their kit is designed to be end user friendly by the home mechanic. Unfortunately this does not always teach good skills and drills and many people should not be let anywhere near a pair of forks and certainly no where near a shock. Its another reason some of us charge good money for what we do the knowledge and tooling did not come for free, but by all means go use joe bloggs down the road who thinks he can do it better for ?80.00, I can garuntee he does not use the same techniques or processes I would or go as in depth.
K-Tech have no interest in telling you how to do something either and why should they, they want you to use us dealers or use them direct and you have to remember as we are all in business to make money as professionals by doing those said jobs. You also have to remember we also live in a claim culture world!!!
Many of the brands will only release key information to their dealers and service centres for that reason, we have been trained by the brands in the specifics of their kit and I certainly would not risk loosing my dealership rights by sharing that info. I am lucky I have worked for Ohlins and have access to anything I need so when a fork or shock is serviced it is serviced to the spec card- key things like nitrogen levels, air gaps, key technical information that joe bloggs does not have. Again another reason to go to a professional that is able to service your kit to the correct specs and not just guess or try to find out the info online because updates do happen to spec cards and tech info.
I was not gifted to get where I am today and if you knew how hard it was a few years back to get any kind of dealership or service rights as a Suspension dealership it was like rocking horse, if you think it is clicky now go back 5-7 years. I had plenty of people snub me or ignore me, butI was very lucky I landed what I did when I did to get in with Ohlins as they have completely plugged their dealership network tighter than tight now and nobody outside of Ohlins gets offered a job as a BSB technician, but im equally glad I moved away to venture on my own as I have done far more with a far greater range of suspension companies, it is interesting to see what views differing companies have and what technologies/strategies they are developing.
I am now studying for a masters degree in advanced engineering, it does not make me any better at suspension, but as an engineering professional it allows me to chase further things should I choose and opens more doors outside of Suspension in the wider world of engineering - I have done some of my own design work including custom linkages. To note, many Crew Chiefs are degree level engineers, not all of them but many of them. It is one of the hardest jobs to gain and an even harder one to keep as Motorsport is so unstable, i know of 3 WSB level teams that have folded due to the Pandemic and all those staff have lost their jobs with no jobs for this season found as of yet.
I have never ventured in MTB suspension but there is big money in it especially given its relative simplicity. I have raced MTB's since the mid 90's, mainly XC then last few years Enduro, unfortunately its sad to see soo much is being lost to marketing hype and the industry is not what it was back in the day. The grass roots has long gone!
Of course you voiced the right of your opinion but to your own self admittance you are not a professional in the industry and you tried to do your own work and It sounds like it did not go quite according to plan (alex is right, you can never fully be sure what has happened before) I am sorry to hear. I have given you my professional advice and even stated how I approach removing tubes.
Now based upon what you have said you have sought assistance and that assistance for the most part has not been forthcoming in perhaps the way that you would have liked. It does not matter what suspension companies you go off emailing because removing tubes is a very common practice, and the likes of Ohlins, K-Tech etc really probably are not at all interested in helping you with your quiery or have any time to be bothered to reply (the cold harsh reality). Your basically asking them why they are doing something that you think perhaps they should not be and I base that off your comments about the differing thermal effects of materials and substances. As an Engineer I understand these issues surroounding materials from first principles, but again you admit your information has in part been read from the internet.
The Suspension Industry, It is like a club for the boys in a way, as I felt the same way trying to get into Suspension myself even as a race engineer. If you work in the industry you will know the right people and those people will happily discuss the topic with you all day long, there is a hell of a lot of interpersonal relationships between suspension guys within the UK especially when your working at BSB level. It took me a very long time to get in that circle, my work as a Motorcycle Race Engineer (Crew Chief) is outside of SSR Suspension and is also a paid role. I am an Engineer by Degree level vocation as well as trade. Many suspension professionals are also engineers by qualification, some are just technician level, we have all invested in ourselves somewhere along the way.
I have spent thousands of pounds investing in not only myself on courses both at Factory level and at Manufacture/Brand level because believe me they don't come for free! But also the right tooling and equipment to be able to task myself at working with suspension as well as working for free many moons ago as a race mechanic to get experience with bike setup, some of my friends work in Moto GP/WSB and it is good to discuss motorcycle handling, data analysis etc etc as they are on the next level with setup due to the electronic packages they run. Everyday is a school day as a professional and we can all learn from each other and I never know where I may be next season.
I am yet to invest in a dyno, which is vital when analysing damping and diagnosing issues with shocks (any suspension professional worth their salt will agree) but at 10k for even a basic setup it is a lot of outlay. So I use a friends at his workshop, I just pay him in biscuits and coffee. They say you can not learn from a book that is certainly true for some many facets of suspension in practice-but not all. I use a piece of chassis software which costs ?1200 per year to licence, yet it is meaningless on its own, you need at least rider feedback and if possible data if it is a racing environment.
You can't set up a bike by magic numbers or an excel spreadsheet on its own, its not the real world and this is where things have gone too far for average joe. I have also created my own excel spreadsheets etc which are fine in theory, but in real world practice there is alot more going on than what a spreadsheet can tell you. The most important thing above all else, is that the rider is confident and you give him the bike that he wants (or she) and not what the spreadsheet states is correct because sometimes the spreadsheet is wrong and the settings you end up with could not be further than that theoretical spreadsheet.
A road rider or track day guy does not need someone with a chassis software programme or geometry programme to make them faster, they need the basics sorting out before all else (tyres/springs/damping) and to be honest we all could benefit from rider coaching no matter how good we are!
The problem is so many companies are trying to outcompete each other trying to be the next best place to go since sliced bread and the UK is a small place-heck even the racers are starting raceprep shops this year and their branding sells. I also hate when a company starts slagging someone elses work as it is really not very professional at all-why would you be so worried about what someone else has done when What should really matter is what that job is like when it leaves your own door (some people are like lemmings when they see this kind of post!), because even the best people make mistakes we are after all only human.
The reason we suspension people become more sheepish is because some of us have spent thousands of pounds to get to where we are and thats why we get annoyed when we see so much of our trade blagged or missold by people who think they know what they are doing but don't and there is little industry regulation/if any. It is also one of the reasons the majority of us won't touch a web forum or facebook. But I hope to be here to dispell some of the bull**** by being genuine with people on here. But, I am also a highly skilled professional out to make a living and not give out free tips on how to do your own work or set your own bike up to every one under the sun.
As for Racetech, they will help anybody, because that is how they have modelled their business model and systems and their kit is designed to be end user friendly by the home mechanic. Unfortunately this does not always teach good skills and drills and many people should not be let anywhere near a pair of forks and certainly no where near a shock. Its another reason some of us charge good money for what we do the knowledge and tooling did not come for free, but by all means go use joe bloggs down the road who thinks he can do it better for ?80.00, I can garuntee he does not use the same techniques or processes I would or go as in depth.
K-Tech have no interest in telling you how to do something either and why should they, they want you to use us dealers or use them direct and you have to remember as we are all in business to make money as professionals by doing those said jobs. You also have to remember we also live in a claim culture world!!!
Many of the brands will only release key information to their dealers and service centres for that reason, we have been trained by the brands in the specifics of their kit and I certainly would not risk loosing my dealership rights by sharing that info. I am lucky I have worked for Ohlins and have access to anything I need so when a fork or shock is serviced it is serviced to the spec card- key things like nitrogen levels, air gaps, key technical information that joe bloggs does not have. Again another reason to go to a professional that is able to service your kit to the correct specs and not just guess or try to find out the info online because updates do happen to spec cards and tech info.
I was not gifted to get where I am today and if you knew how hard it was a few years back to get any kind of dealership or service rights as a Suspension dealership it was like rocking horse, if you think it is clicky now go back 5-7 years. I had plenty of people snub me or ignore me, butI was very lucky I landed what I did when I did to get in with Ohlins as they have completely plugged their dealership network tighter than tight now and nobody outside of Ohlins gets offered a job as a BSB technician, but im equally glad I moved away to venture on my own as I have done far more with a far greater range of suspension companies, it is interesting to see what views differing companies have and what technologies/strategies they are developing.
I am now studying for a masters degree in advanced engineering, it does not make me any better at suspension, but as an engineering professional it allows me to chase further things should I choose and opens more doors outside of Suspension in the wider world of engineering - I have done some of my own design work including custom linkages. To note, many Crew Chiefs are degree level engineers, not all of them but many of them. It is one of the hardest jobs to gain and an even harder one to keep as Motorsport is so unstable, i know of 3 WSB level teams that have folded due to the Pandemic and all those staff have lost their jobs with no jobs for this season found as of yet.
I have never ventured in MTB suspension but there is big money in it especially given its relative simplicity. I have raced MTB's since the mid 90's, mainly XC then last few years Enduro, unfortunately its sad to see soo much is being lost to marketing hype and the industry is not what it was back in the day. The grass roots has long gone!
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All I did was raise a concern of thread gnarling which you could not answer and yet Race Tech could, that to me suggests that you do not understand ?surroounding materials from first principles?.
My concerns on ageing and deformation are still there, as I?ve based them on official published accounts and not forums or Facebook. You should have just responded by saying that you have never had any issues and then left it at that, but instead you?ve now gone off on a tangent talking about yourself?far too much.
I am not a business, so I am not poaching your customers and yet you?ve treated me as a competitor that has has to be taken down.
Move on!
My concerns on ageing and deformation are still there, as I?ve based them on official published accounts and not forums or Facebook. You should have just responded by saying that you have never had any issues and then left it at that, but instead you?ve now gone off on a tangent talking about yourself?far too much.
I am not a business, so I am not poaching your customers and yet you?ve treated me as a competitor that has has to be taken down.
Move on!
"Race Tech were helpful, they mentioned that the gnarling occurs if too little heat is applied which is more common than over heating."
So you gnarled it because you didn't heat it enough/didn't use the right technique and potentially it was on a poor quality/old item based on your research. Good job we don't have KYB forks then and that there's good reason to use a trained suspension specialist.
Have you bought an RR?
Have you taken the forks apart on one?
So you gnarled it because you didn't heat it enough/didn't use the right technique and potentially it was on a poor quality/old item based on your research. Good job we don't have KYB forks then and that there's good reason to use a trained suspension specialist.
Have you bought an RR?
Have you taken the forks apart on one?
I obviously didn't heat it up enough as it was only an experiment, my research was mostly regarding the effects on applying heat to that type of alloy and not just the gnarling.
Why is it a good job that KYBs aren't fitted to your bikes, there's no discernible difference between KYB, Showa or Marzzochi mass produced forks.
The importance of buying an RR and taking its forks apart are currently irrelevant as we are discussing what risks that are involved in refitting all lower knuckles on USD forks.
Why is it a good job that KYBs aren't fitted to your bikes, there's no discernible difference between KYB, Showa or Marzzochi mass produced forks.
The importance of buying an RR and taking its forks apart are currently irrelevant as we are discussing what risks that are involved in refitting all lower knuckles on USD forks.
No, we're not discussing it. You are. The rest of us are just baffled as to why.
It would be standard practice, by order of the manuafacturers, to replace parts if they cannot be safely removed and reused. If the manufacturer like Ohlins, KYB, Showa, Mupo, Maxton, K-Tech etc etc don't demand replacement then there's no issue, there is only bad workmanship (either prior or current).
towers040
Well-known member
Getting closer to being completed
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stuartb
Well-known member
I'm exhausted reading through these posts lol... so Towers is that them back then ?
towers040
Well-known member
Nahh not back Mark at SSR is waiting on the Stantions to come back from the PVD company
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towers040
Well-known member
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Glad the long wait is over. Not a great experience. But nice looking now its done.
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stuartb
Well-known member
You happy with them mate ?... bike looks better with the plastics off it lol..
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