Dave Moss Tuning - S1000RR 2015 - Suspension

[fast_ryan]

Suspension Setup

Here are a few points for consideration when it comes to suspension setup and spring weights. Setting preload is normally required as a starting point for any further suspension adjustments so getting this aspect right is very important. Many riders become overly concerned with the relationship between weight and suspension setup. For perspective two riders on the same bike who are the same height and weight will need different spring rates and valving based on their riding style. A rider who is much stronger on the brakes will require a greater spring rate and will have a stiffer setup. A rider who is better at carrying higher corner speed will usually have a softer setup and a lighter spring but may require increased ride height to maximise mechanical grip at full lean angle. Suspension setup therefore varies significantly from one rider to another due to a whole host of variables. I've posted this before but the key to understanding suspension setup is being able to identify what the bike is doing beneath you and more importantly what it is preventing you from doing. Setting preload is a good starting point but note that suspension setup is all about trial and error particularly with DDC so the best advice is to get out and experiment to find what works best for you. Do this before going down the route of changing springs etc as the OEM setup is very good as standard and is designed to suit a variety of different riders, riding styles and ability.

 

[MikePotteRR]

Re: Suspension Setup

Thanks RyS1000RR. Its interesting on the video that Dave recommends a sag of 35mm and states the front is "soft" from the factory. Ohlins recommend 40mm sag for the front.
On my ohlins forks running 10.0 springs I needed 4/5 turns of preload to hit the 40mm target sag. Now the 2015 has an average spring rate of 10.25. This will probably give me the same sag but with no preload which is not ideal. However at Dave's number of 35 I will need to add preload.

My understanding is softer springs will increase feel and the perception of grip but in the case of the forks you can run the risk of bottoming. Preload can be added but then this raises the front in relation to its travel and thus puts it closer to topping out. This can lead to the bike lifting the front wheel under hard power or at least more head shaking.

Like most things it is about balance and as you say understanding what the bike is doing beneath you.

After I actually get out on the bike (damn winter) I will assess if I need to change things. I used to prefer a stiffer feeling front end. As I'm improving and better understanding what the bike is doing I find myself looking for more feedback which a setup with softer springs and more preload would provide.

 

[fast_ryan]

Suspension Setup

Suspension setup is an evolving process. Setup will continually change the faster you go as you will likely encounter different issues as the suspension will react differently as the pace increases. As you correctly state its about finding a balance and understanding what the bike is doing beneath you as you progress.

 

[MikePotteRR]

Prior to changing springs what issues did you find? Was it just numb?

May I also ask what internal mods did they do to the forks over at MCT? I have heard the oil heights can be different in each leg from the factory?

 

[fast_ryan]

Suspension Setup

I struggled with generating front-end feel on corner entry and when trail braking towards an apex. Ultimately, I was experiencing a vagueness when loading the front tyre. I changed the OEM front fork springs to an alpha Racing (9.5) set. In addition MCT made a few small changes to the internal valving to improve flow and the air gap was altered. The rear remains unchanged as it was not causing me any issues. Suffice to say I'm much happier with how the bike now behaves on track.

 

[MikePotteRR]

Ah, that makes sense. I imagine they increased the air gap to reduce the risk of bottoming with the softer springs?
How much travel do you normally have left?

 

[fast_ryan]

Suspension Setup

I will check the potentiometer log data the next time I've got the HP software running and let you know.

 

[MikePotteRR]

Brill, thanks again RyS1000RR

 

[preynol1]

If you own a 2015+ this is probably worth the 99p to rent/watch.

Interesting fact so far - from the factory it comes with no pre-load so no wonder people struggle till they see a suspension tuner.

How do you watch full video? I keep clicking links but go back to trailer? Arhhhhhh


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[Oli]

How do you watch full video? I keep clicking links but go back to trailer? Arhhhhhh


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You have to pay to watch it though YouTube, there are rent and purchase options

 

[alex]

You need to login to youtube to use that feature


- Sent from Mobile

 

[Mutl3y]

Hi all,
any recommendations for around the Reading area to get the sag set up on the sport? I was using Steve Jordan motorcycles for my triumph, he set that up just right for me.
cheers
Mut

 

[Felix]

Does this guy work for MCT?

 

[Oli]

Does this guy work for MCT?

No Ben, Steve Jordan?s company is ?Steve Jordan Motorcycles?.
http://www.stevejordanmotorcycles.co.uk

The man behind ?MCT Suspension? is Darren Wnukoski.
http://www.mctsuspension.co.uk/Home.html

 

[preynol1]

You have to pay to watch it though YouTube, there are rent and purchase options

Cheers Oli new to this YouTube lark! Watched the video but not sure what I got out of it? Other than Dave repeatedly stating the front ends too soft I didn?t pick up any recommended sag settings. I?ll watch it again.


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[preynol1]

I?ve always struggled with suspension tuners as they never fully explain how feel translates to what to adjust They tend to suggest catalog settings in my experience. It?s a very personal subject and everyone?s preference in feel of grip and confidence is different. The best thing I ever did was ride the same road repeatedly and play with the setting as per below.


ROUTE CAUSE ANALYSIS....

REAR...

TOO MUCH REBOUND (REAR)
- Wheel tends to hop in turns with small bumps
- Wheel skips too much when braking on rippled pavement. Does not develop good braking power
- Poor rear traction when accelerating over small bumps or rippled pavement
TOO LITTLE REBOUND (REAR)
- Bike wallows when exiting corners or in long rolling dips in sweepers
- Bike feels soft or vague
- Rear pogo or chatter on corner exits, general loss of traction, and tire overheating
TOO MUCH COMPRESSION (REAR)
- Suspension is harsh over small bumps
- Very little squat - Loss of traction/sliding
- Tire overheating
TOO LITTLE COMPRESSION (REAR)
- Shock bottoms out on Medium-sized bumps
- Rear squats under acceleration
- Bike doesn't want to turn upon corner entry
FRONT...
TOO MUCH REBOUND (FRONT)
- Front end feels 'Locked Up,' Harsh Ride Quality
- After first bump, the bike skips over following ones and wants to tuck front
- Bike prone to Headshake and Tankslapping upon hard acceleration
TOO LITTLE REBOUND (FRONT)
- Bike wallows and tends to RUN WIDE EXITING turns
- Front end CHATTER, loss of Traction
- Wheel KICKS BACK on large bumps
TOO MUCH COMPRESSION (FRONT)
- Front End tends to ride high through corners
- Suspension is harsh over small bumps
- Forks never seem to bottom out, even on large hits
TOO LITTLE COMPRESSION (FRONT)
- Front end DIVES SEVERELY
- Front feels Soft or Vague
- Clunk can be heard upon bottoming
GENERAL RULES
1) Set Sag and do the preload / steering test; adjust as necessary
2) SLIGHTLY harder rear compression helps the bike to turn in faster
3) AFTER the bike does nothing bad, balance damping so both ends work together
4) If wheel bouncing & you can't feel it through the bars add rebound; if you can reduce compression
5) Problem occurs from steer-in to midpoint, adjust front-end; from mid-point to exit adjust rear
6) Bike sits too high at front takes more effort to steer; raise forks through headstock
7) Bike too low at front, it will become unstabel; lower forks through headstock
8) Swingarm too flat, bike squats, runs wide, feels too light; add ride height to rear/lengthen shock
9) Swingarm too steep, bike won't squat, poor traction, wheelspin exits; lower rear height/shorten shock
10) Bike isn't balanced; adjust until it is - REGARDLESS of initial setup adjustments; this is vital

Not sure where I got it but helped me understand how the feel of grip / bike changed with different adjustments.


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[alex]

Good post that, however I think you?ve mixed the titles of the Rear Rebound around??

You increase rebound to slow the expansion of the shock. Decrease it to allow the spring to force it open faster.




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[soofsayer]

Cant say I agree with a number of points posted there but it is Christmas so I wont get into it, and if it works for you thats great, however....

I do take issue with the use of the word ‘chatter’ which is a resonance that occurs on a bike, it is geometry/engine/frame/wheels and not necessarily suspension related, nor is it something that is experienced at the front or rear but through the entire bike. I have never experienced chatter on a bike and very very few riders including pro racers have or will either, most people who say they have are confusing chatter with vibration caused by any number of things. From the 2 (ex racers) whom I have spoken to about this who did have the misfortune to feel chatter on a bike said it was a horrible ‘imminent crashy’ experience and something they were glad to survive.

 

[preynol1]

Please don?t take my note as a statement I?m a riding god just what I found useful in getting to grips with the black art of suspension. The only chatter I?ve experienced is down the pub!


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[soofsayer]

Please don’t take my note as a statement I’m a riding god just what I found useful in getting to grips with the black art of suspension. The only chatter I’ve experienced is down the pub!


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It wasnt taken as being anything more than some useful info you kindly shared fella so apologies if I came across as anything different.... I was pointing out that the original author’s use of the term chatter was questionable at best, and like you say, most likely experienced over a few pints.