2017 S1000RR with DDC - Preload/Sag Help

[gints]

I need some quick advice with a new S1000RR (2017 Stock with DDC)

I am about 250lb in full riding gear, intention is fast street riding across all manner of roads (from ****** and bumpy through to racetrack quality)

I expect at my weight, I will likely need new springs, particularly in the rear, however I want to get the most out of the bike and break it in before making major changes. Currently only at 600km.

My question is around preload/sag, and your recommendations.

The BMW manual recommends 8-12mm Rear and 10-15mm front, however these measures are 'negative spring displacement' - the difference between static sag and rider sag (ignoring the full extension and total sag). Previously I have setup bikes using total sag.

Given it is a DDC bike, do you recommend this BMW method, or an alternate? I am confused as I thought adding preload won't really change the relationship between these 2 figures much, and I will end up with a ton of preload and the bike sitting too high.

With the sag set (as best as possible with my weight and stock springs) - what is good starting point for the Rear Reb/Comp and Front Damping?

Any help would be great.

Ta,
Regan

 

[JamieMac]

Just some info you might find useful. I'd measure it as you have done in the past.

1. You need the ignition 'on' when setting sag otherwise the valving is closed.

2. it's worth taking the bike out for a ride to warm the suspension.

3.K-Tech are the cheapest place to get replacement springs.

4. General Spring info (you'd need to check if the 2017 is different to my 2015. I don't think so.)


[FONT=&quot]2015 RR with DDC[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]F 11 N/mm[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]R 95 N/mm[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]- plus different valve characteristics for more high speed damping[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In the left tube of the DDC fork there is a 9.5 N/mm spring. The right is 11 N/mm (2015 RR).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Front forks [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]130 to 160 lbs 9.5/9.5 to 9.5/10.0 Nmm [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]160 to 190 Lbs 10.0/10.0 to 10.0/10.5 Nmm [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]190 to 220 Lbs 10.5/10.5 to 10.5/11.0 Nmm [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]220 to 240 lbs 11.0/11.0 to 11.0 /11.5 Nmm [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]240 to 260 lbs 11.5/11.5 to 11.5/12.0 Nmm [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]100 N/mm equals 10.19 KG/mm or 571 lbs/inch[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Rear shocks [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]145 to 165 lbs 85 Nmm [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]165 to 185 Lbs 90 Nmm [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]185 to 205 Lbs 95Nmm [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]205 to 225 lbs 100 Nmm [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]225 to 245 lbs 105 Nmm [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]245 to 265 lbs 110 Nmm [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2015 RR with DDC[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]F 11 N/mm (R), 9.5 N/mm (L)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]R 95 N/mm[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This would seem to indicate that the bike comes set up from the factory for:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Front forks: 160-193 Lbs rider[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Rear shock: 185-205 Lbs rider[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And yet most people (including myself) around 155Lb seem to have no problem setting the rear shock negative spring displacement, but are unable to get the front forks in range as they are way too stiff. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Seems like BMW made better choices for the HP4:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2014 HP4 DDC[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]F 9.5/9.5 N/mm (130-160 Lb rider)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]R 85 N/mm (145-165 Lb rider)[/FONT]

 

[GixxerChuck]

I?m about 18 stone with kit on. Couldn?t get sag anywhere near the recommendations. 1 was too much one was not enough which made no sense. Someone like MCT suspension is your best bet.


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[JamieMac]

Hi,

Bearing in mind Rain, Sport are tied together and Rain, Sport have a different reaction to the same damping settings as Race.

On smooth road such as in France I run Race +3 F/R.
On a bumpy Col or in South East England I run Sport -3 F/R
Trackdays Slick +5 F/R to +7 F/R.

Note I have changed my rear spring for my weight and style.

I need some quick advice with a new S1000RR (2017 Stock with DDC)

I am about 250lb in full riding gear, intention is fast street riding across all manner of roads (from ****** and bumpy through to racetrack quality)

I expect at my weight, I will likely need new springs, particularly in the rear, however I want to get the most out of the bike and break it in before making major changes. Currently only at 600km.

My question is around preload/sag, and your recommendations.

The BMW manual recommends 8-12mm Rear and 10-15mm front, however these measures are 'negative spring displacement' - the difference between static sag and rider sag (ignoring the full extension and total sag). Previously I have setup bikes using total sag.

Given it is a DDC bike, do you recommend this BMW method, or an alternate? I am confused as I thought adding preload won't really change the relationship between these 2 figures much, and I will end up with a ton of preload and the bike sitting too high.

With the sag set (as best as possible with my weight and stock springs) - what is good starting point for the Rear Reb/Comp and Front Damping?

Any help would be great.

Ta,
Regan

 

[cre0108]

Jamie Mac i have had my front springs changed as i weigh 10 and Half stone is required also to do rear ? For normal riding?

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[JamieMac]

Hi, so you're probably 11.5 stone i.e 161 lbs in leathers, lid, boots etc, so the std rear spring is around 10Nmm to stiff. But please bear in mind suspension, ride etc is very personal, plus temperatures, roads etc make a big difference. Riding a sports bike in this weather is horrible.

Backing off the preload and damping may be enough for you. If you did want to change the rear spring, k-tech are the cheapest and one of the few to actually sell the correct spring. Taking the shock off is pretty easy. Tank off, take out the bottom subframe bolts and loosen the top ones.... bungy it out of the way.

Jamie Mac i have had my front springs changed as i weigh 10 and Half stone is required also to do rear ? For normal riding?

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[preynol1]

I still think people over think this, given BMW engineers do know a bit about suspension.

Sag is only to ensure the spring (front and rear) doesn?t top or bottom out and maintains the centre section of its travel during a ride.

I?m no feather weight and have no issue with the standard springs. I must admit that some of you light weights may need less stiff springs. Or just eat drink more.....

The clever bit is how settings effect the control of the suspensions movement with the damping systems. That?s where your ability / talent and how the movement of the standard system adjustment effects handling and feel.

My advice is don?t set it up based on someone else?s advice.
Find a favourite bit of road and ride it in a mode which feels best rain/ sport / race or slick. Then alter the settings one at a time 2points from zero and repeat the ride. Repeat this in both neg and positive directions of adjustment.
You will then start feeling the effect of each change. And understand what suits you.

I was given this years ago and found it useful.


ROUTE CAUSE ANALYSIS....

REAR...

TOO MUCH REBOUND (REAR)
- Wheel tends to hop in turns with small bumps
- Wheel skips too much when braking on rippled pavement. Does not develop good braking power
- Poor rear traction when accelerating over small bumps or rippled pavement
TOO LITTLE REBOUND (REAR)
- Bike wallows when exiting corners or in long rolling dips in sweepers
- Bike feels soft or vague
- Rear pogo or chatter on corner exits, general loss of traction, and tire overheating
TOO MUCH COMPRESSION (REAR)
- Suspension is harsh over small bumps
- Very little squat - Loss of traction/sliding
- Tire overheating
TOO LITTLE COMPRESSION (REAR)
- Shock bottoms out on Medium-sized bumps
- Rear squats under acceleration
- Bike doesn't want to turn upon corner entry
FRONT...
TOO MUCH REBOUND (FRONT)
- Front end feels 'Locked Up,' Harsh Ride Quality
- After first bump, the bike skips over following ones and wants to tuck front
- Bike prone to Headshake and Tankslapping upon hard acceleration
TOO LITTLE REBOUND (FRONT)
- Bike wallows and tends to RUN WIDE EXITING turns
- Front end CHATTER, loss of Traction
- Wheel KICKS BACK on large bumps
TOO MUCH COMPRESSION (FRONT)
- Front End tends to ride high through corners
- Suspension is harsh over small bumps
- Forks never seem to bottom out, even on large hits
TOO LITTLE COMPRESSION (FRONT)
- Front end DIVES SEVERELY
- Front feels Soft or Vague
- Clunk can be heard upon bottoming
GENERAL RULES
1) Set Sag and do the preload / steering test; adjust as necessary
2) SLIGHTLY harder rear compression helps the bike to turn in faster
3) AFTER the bike does nothing bad, balance damping so both ends work together
4) If wheel bouncing & you can't feel it through the bars add rebound; if you can reduce compression
5) Problem occurs from steer-in to midpoint, adjust front-end; from mid-point to exit adjust rear
6) Bike sits too high at front takes more effort to steer; raise forks through headstock
7) Bike too low at front, it will become unstabel; lower forks through headstock
8) Swingarm too flat, bike squats, runs wide, feels too light; add ride height to rear/lengthen shock
9) Swingarm too steep, bike won't squat, poor traction, wheelspin exits; lower rear height/shorten shock
10) Bike isn't balanced; adjust until it is - REGARDLESS of initial setup adjustments; this is vital







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[stuartb]

Jeezo... 11.5 Stone suited and booted thats light lol...

... I'm with Preynol regarding overthinking Sag...

On a personal note and just purely as a discussion point, I know pretty much nothing about Sag, so never adjusted any of my bikes to suit my weight.. I must be 15 odd Stone suited, that's a complete guess as I've never weighed myself.. Fork Compression and Rebound is as far as I ever go.

I've two mates both very competent riders...R1 and Gixxer 750 who'd show anyone a clean pair on any of the roads up our way neither have ever touched any suspension settings on their bikes.

Each to their own, but I certainly don't mean to devalue any comments on here... I think it's good to take a step back and simplify things at times...

S



Stuart's Galaxy sent this !