Second Lithium Dead

[stuartb]

Right guys, what is going on here !... got my new second Shido lithium from Gobatteries delivered mid week, charged it for an hour on the Lithium setting.

Tonight I put the battery in the tray, hooked up in the correct fashion, bike fired up no problem, let it run, dropped my MV off the ramp, swapped them over.

Between that, eating my din dins and removing both rear peg hangers and replacing my Race fit stubby with my OE HP4 can the battery is completely dead !...

WTF !.. the electrics are all standard with the exception of a pair of LED running lights and my phone charger that Stephen made up for me..which I never connected as I've further work to do and was going to whip the battery out again... ... I don't believe it.

Any ideas... is it possible this one is faulty too.. are their any known issues with our bikes and Lithium batteries ?

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[stuartb]

Certainly not charging correctly... so my problems could be two fold.. faulty battery and charging circuit issue which looks certain.

I'll pick up a battery at halfords tomorrow and rule in or out the battery.. if the new battery doesn't discharge then this second Shido is also knackered..

Checked for parasitic drain and registered nil on my MM.... 50ma or less is good, nil doesn't male things any clearer tho...

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[IMORTAL_Indian]

You are have a mare pal.... hope you get it sorted


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[stuartb]

Total nightmare.. just can't see what on the bike could completely empty a fully charged Lithium in 1 hour..

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[stuartb]

Anyone changed over the stator on a Thou yet... I'm going to pull the cover and give the windings a visual..set of stretch bolts required now !..

Definitely not the battery, checked it with Rab Carsons Lithium out of his gen 4...

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[Katie]

What about the Reg/Rec? I've always been amazed at how much that item can screw with the electrics!

 

[stuartb]

Right on it there Katie... Great minds.. so I've disconnected the reg/rec and stuck my fully charged battery in..at 13.43 V.. there's a diode in the body of it, chances it's blown, if battery is still good tomorrow I'll checkout the stator now I know where the leads are..

AND

I've ordered a set of Croc Clip leads, those probes are a ******* pain

!

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[HPlogger]

Lithium batteries are quite sensitive to things like:-
1. Out of tolerance charging rate, from the bike and/or with chargers. (i.e. over voltage, over or under charged).
2. Cold temperatures.
3. Being totally discharged reduces full charge ability and life of battery.
4. Constantly being used can drain Li-on batteries quickly such as cranking an engine over.
5. Shorting out + & - (electrical faults).

Alternators are a 3 phase AC supply that changes frequency and voltage according to the engine RPM, continuity can be tested between each phase the Impedance values should be similar. Test continuity between all phases to ground this should be infinite Ohms. Voltage tests can be undertaken when the engine is running at certain RPM results vary depending on size of alternator, this will determine whether current will be generated.
Current can also be measured with a clamp meter on the Alternator wiring (AC) or after the regulator/rectifier wiring (DC).
The alternator feeds to the regulator/rectifier which consists of diodes, these be tested with a multimeter.
the output from the reg/rec can also be tested -
The most accurate way I would say is to attach a voltage and ammeter display on the yoke and wire to the battery terminals (for voltage U) and positive wire from reg/rec (for current I). This indicates how the battery is charging and if within Li-on battery charge spec.

 

[HPlogger]

Wiring for an s1000rr 2015 on charging system.

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[mike g]

after 2 pattern generators and the original bmw "burning out" I've wired a digital voltmeter into the switched accessory socket RH side of the headstock with some positaps.
pleased to confirm the SH bmw generator is still charging nicely. It's still on the original reg rec, although I did try a pattern one before I realised the original was burnt out (30+K miles) the pattern ones (generator) lasted less than 2K, SH one is still ok at 46k, and I've a brand new spare just in case. also replaced the battery in the initial WTF stage, but the original is still good (both gel).
anyway worth fitting the voltmeter for peace of mind, double sided tape to the head stock air intake, so it's not in your face, but easy to check.

 

[JamieMac]

My thoughts would be Reg/Rec. My 1098 would shut down i.e no sign of life in electrics whilst doing any speed even on a trackday. Turned out the Reg/Rec was outputting 15+v and the clocks have a safety measure that they shut down when over voltage.

I now run one of these on all my bikes and it shows various colours for various voltages. I would have never diagnosed the 1098 problem without it. Saved my brain/time for years now. J

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LED-MOTO...4d0ab4b1b69a1a87ae6c|ampid:PL_CLK|clp:2334524

 

[stuartb]

So where I'm at, ruled out the battery, yesterday disconnected reg/rec, battery stable tonight after 24 hrs.. by product of this yesterday registered 3.5 ma draw, noticed heated grips icon on dash was on ?.. and wouldn't switch off, eventually worked switch and got them off (I had to strip, clean and rebuild switch last year).. I'm not reading into this bit too much and just dealing with the obvious.

No draw registered after that, switch working fine..I'm assuming lack of use.

Just to be certain checked stator 3 phase output at
1. Rest.
2. Idle
3. 5k revs
Also checked it wasn't earthing out.

Glad to say all readings were acceptable.. therfore I can only think it's Reg/Rec..Tech that serviced it 2 weeks ago getting me a price for the RR from BMW Glasgow..

Removing the RR looks a bit of fun !


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[stuartb]

My thoughts would be Reg/Rec. My 1098 would shut down i.e no sign of life in electrics whilst doing any speed even on a trackday. Turned out the Reg/Rec was outputting 15+v and the clocks have a safety measure that they shut down when over voltage.

I now run one of these on all my bikes and it shows various colours for various voltages. I would have never diagnosed the 1098 problem without it. Saved my brain/time for years now. J

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LED-MOTO...4d0ab4b1b69a1a87ae6c|ampid:PL_CLK|clp:2334524

Good shout on that Jamie, no mention of Lithium tho it says any 12V Battery.. think I'll nab one of these.. That MV could be doing with one too.

Reckon OK for a Lith battery ?

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[stuartb]

after 2 pattern generators and the original bmw "burning out" I've wired a digital voltmeter into the switched accessory socket RH side of the headstock with some positaps.
pleased to confirm the SH bmw generator is still charging nicely. It's still on the original reg rec, although I did try a pattern one before I realised the original was burnt out (30+K miles) the pattern ones (generator) lasted less than 2K, SH one is still ok at 46k, and I've a brand new spare just in case. also replaced the battery in the initial WTF stage, but the original is still good (both gel).
anyway worth fitting the voltmeter for peace of mind, double sided tape to the head stock air intake, so it's not in your face, but easy to check.

Mike, what one did you fit ?.

That LED charge monitor Jamie recommended looks neat enough.

S

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[JamieMac]

Good shout on that Jamie, no mention of Lithium tho it says any 12V Battery.. think I'll nab one of these.. That MV could be doing with one too.

Reckon OK for a Lith battery ?

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Stu, all my bikes including the Dullsville run Lithium batteries. Perfect on all of them. Reassuring to see green at any revs whilst you?re riding. Especially as V-Twins are hard on batteries. Remember whilst your riding it?s actually checking your alternator output. Plus if you only have one trickle charger you can see easily which bike needs a top up. J

 

[JamieMac]

Reg/Rec fairly easy to remove if you pull the bottom subframe bolts, loosen the top 2 and swing the subframe up. Check your rear brake reservoir so it doesn?t pull the hose. J

 

[stuartb]

Stu, all my bikes including the Dullsville run Lithium batteries. Perfect on all of them. Reassuring to see green at any revs whilst you?re riding. Especially as V-Twins are hard on batteries. Remember whilst your riding it?s actually checking your alternator output. Plus if you only have one trickle charger you can see easily which bike needs a top up. J

I like how neat it is, and the sound of that.. did you run the cables direct from the battery Jamie ?

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[stuartb]

Or switched side I'm thinking..

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[stuartb]

Glad I asked the question, got a reply from Steve @ gammatronnix, stating that they sell a specific model for Lithium batteries, it will not however work on any battery except Lithium..it's the same price ?14.95



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[Flyingscotsman]

Hi Stuart, were you having battery trouble before you switched to the new Lithium one?

Something I've always wondered about is that the Lithium batteries need special mains chargers because of their tech (they seem to be very sensitive to over or under voltage and charge rate), but then we put them in vehicles (both bikes & cars) that don't have any special charging circuits.

Just a thought, but perhaps your charging circuit is out of spec for a Lithium but would be OK for a lead acid battery.