EU Referendum

[alex]

This may be the wrong place (forum as a whole) and maybe it should be removed but...

I don't want a vote check or anything like that but I do want to highlight this referendum that's been forced upon us at short notice is actually more important than a General Election.

IMO it boils down to 2 choices;

• If you vote in; Ultimately you've decided that you want to be govered by un-elected body, which you have no power to remove.
• Vote out if you want to have a say in how things are run then you have to vote out IMO.

Immigration/trade/benefits and everything else come secondary to this one key fact. We don't elect Ministers in Europe to lead us, it's forced upon us and that, in short, is a dictatorship. Power without accountability is NOT Democracy.

I'm not a racist bigot whom thinks UKIP or Britain First are a good idea. I'm just looking at the evidence. We need to be involved in Europe/Asia and America BUT NOT RUN by them and that is the distinction I am making here.

Couple of vids...forget the politicians and what the media are focussing on, they all have agendas and rich powerful owners.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFt-pRIvL9E

Thing to remember is - you can vote out and join again later...but can you vote in and get a 2nd chance later? Who's to say. Europe has no constitution...

 

[MacRR]

Everyone's entitled to their opinion Alex and I guess an individuals view on being in or out will be influenced by the community you live in, the job that you do, your view of the bigger picture and whether you feel its worth tolerating Brussels or not to deliver what you thinks best for you, your family and the country. I've spent a lot of time running factories both in the UK and in Europe and appreciate the pro's and con's of the debate, its my business which way I'll vote but I think a lot will depend on voting turnout on the day.

 

[alex]

I've not voted by post yet - I'm happy to hear a good argument the other way...I just can't find one.

 

[RacersEdge]

U.K. Lawyers actually draft much of the legislation, including the much maligned human rights act.... Yes, that was us!! and don't forget a lot of it would have to be done by our government if it wasn't done by the EU anyway, although granted some of it seems a little pointless. If we want to trade with them once we leave we will have to accept freedom of movement like Norway and co do and pay into EU to boot but yet wouldn't have a seat at the table to influence decision making. I for one may want to retire abroad one day and if I choose the EU I'll be glad we are still in. I think being insular is the wrong approach. I do think immigration can be a good thing but also agree that our country is stretched and simply struggling to fit everyone in and that does need to be managed, but being out isn't the place to do it.

 

[Stephen]

I think it's ridiculous that our government has passed the decision onto the public. We vote for representatives to make these decisions for us because none of us have the time to research all the social and economic impacts a decision like this will trigger, And a large percentage of the people who will be voting won't know exactly what they're voting for, just being swayed by the odd bias argument in the direction they've been told is the best.

I don't even know if I should vote? What good is an unsure/uninformed vote?

I'll be doing as much research into each option before I make a final decision, not sure what good it'll do though.

 

[soofsayer]

I'd be very wary of 'facts' either way about what would happen if we left the EU. The experts are pretty much always wrong on these things vis a vis the Euro, ERM, stock markets, house prices...... The 'facts' tend to be opinions dressed up to look authoratitive.

If the outcome of Brexit is economic armageddon, is it not wholy irresponsible of Mr Cameron to give the public the choice? If you think he is a responsible politician with an army of well heeled advisors you would have to conclude that the idea of armageddon is a scare tactic.

For me it comes down to a simple decision about whether I want to continue with the path we are on as a country, and if I want my children to inherit where that leads to. Or do I believe the grass is greener if we are a sovereign nation with full control over our trade, borders and laws.

I suspect we will stay, most voters will vote for the status quo on the day.

 

[alex]

I agree that confusion will lead to no change as its deemed safer. At least Cameron and Corbyn can be sacked... There are 4 presidents of Europe and 7 'Euro' entities...I'm not sure which we're discussing anymore.

 

[andyf]

Listen to Uncle Alex.

Democracy is fundamentally flawed, and its only saving grace is that every other option is even worse. The EU always has been and always will be heading towards a federal super-state - well until it becomes one.

The ECHR has nothing to do with the EU - other than that you have to be a signatory to the ECHR to join the EU. And that there is a European court that can sort of over-rule UK courts on certain matters - although the UK courts are not strictly bound by the decisions of the ECtHR, and the HRA provides that incompatible primary legislation trumps ECHR rights under UK law.

There are obviously pros and cons with leaving and staying. Most of the predictions of doom regarding the economy are predominantly fabrications, from respected organisations who variously said that there was nothing wrong with the banking sector and that we would lose out badly if we didn't join the Euro. Big businesses want to remain in the EU partly because it will be easier to trade within a free market, than have to pay tariffs to export, and migration from poorer countries keeps wages low - both from paying the migrants low wages and from the supply of labour keeping wages low.

Prior to mass migration, wages in low paid jobs tended to follow the economy - when the economy was doing well and unemployment was low, employers had to pay more to get staff. This meant that workers at the lower end of the labour market had a chance of earning a living wage, and were less likely to be claiming benefits while working full time. With mass migration from countries with a far lower standard of living, the cycle is permanently at the bottom for the workers.

In the UK we always used imperial weights and measures (named after our empire, natch). The EU outlawed selling in imperial measures, even domestically. They did this because the biggest external market is America, who also use imperial weights and measures (albeit that they don't always get them right), and they didn't want us to have an 'unfair advantage'.

EU regulations are why we are having to pay huge sums of money to French companies to build nuclear power stations to replace perfectly good fossil fuel powered stations. And why we have to pay significantly more on our fuel bills to pay for the bullshit subsidies for solar PV and other green measures.

Not that I have any strong views on the matter...

 

[DL84]

out for me.

 

[oldwobbler]

Blimey! Didn't expect to log on the the S1K forum this morning and get educated
Some very interesting points - thank you.

 

[phil]

Im going for a Ride..